Expectations, Generations, and Transitions: A talk with Jeff Schafer

NDFB Straight Talk hosts Emmery and Alisha visit with Jeff Schafer, a farmer and rancher near New Rockford, N.D. Jeff is a 5th generation farmer who currently works with his children (6th generation) and grandchildren (7th generation!) on the family farm.

Three county Farm Bureaus teamed up to bring Jolene Brown, a farmer and award-winning speaker, to Fessenden, N.D. to talk about succession planning and bridging the gap between the generations.

Jeff was part of the group that brought Jolene to North Dakota. Following her presentation, Jeff sat down to talk about his takeaways and the lessons he's learned as he continues to keep his business thriving through the generations.

We talk with Jeff about:

• What it's like to be a 5th generation farmer working with the 6th and 7th generations
• How to begin the conversation with kids and parents
• Expectations between the generations (ie: "What do you expect from me?", "Here's what I expect from you.")
• How to find the "expert" you can trust to help you take the next step
• Why your farm is worthy of the respect of being treated like a business.

To hear Emmery and Alisha's conversation with Jeff's daughter, Chelsey click here.

To learn more about Jolene Brown, visit here.

Keep an eye out for other events hosted by NDFB at ndfb.org/events

Contact Emmery and Alisha at emmery@ndfb.org

Transcript

[Straight Talk theme]

[00:10] Emmery: Welcome to Straight Talk with NDFB. I am your host, Emmery Mehlhoff. 

[00:14] Alisha: And Alisha Nord. 

[00:16] Emmery: We are your Farm Bureau duo bringing you your competitive edge. In today's episode, we visit with Jeff Schafer in Fessenden, North Dakota. We have just finished up a workshop with Jolene Brown talking about bridging the generations. Jeff Schafer farms and ranches 10 miles west of New Rockford. He is the fifth generation farmer on their farm and ranch, and he also runs his operation with his wife and two children.

[00:42] Alisha: In today's interactive presentation, Jolene Brown shared lessons learned from her 30-plus years of working with farm families, and she also provided tools to help with the transition of labor, management, leadership and ownership.

[00:57] Emmery: Jeff visits with us about things that they're doing on their farm and ranch to implement these ideas, and he shares with us his key takeaways from today's event. Join us for this episode. 

[Straight Talk stinger]

[01:11] Welcome to Straight Talk with NDFB. Today, Alisha and I are up in Fessenden, North Dakota, with Jeff Schafer, who is going to tell us a little bit about the event that we just finished with Jolene Brown on bridging the generations on your farm. But before we start that, Jeff, can you just introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about yourself, your operation and your involvement with North Dakota Farm Bureau over the years.

[01:38] Jeff: Sure. Thanks for having me, and thanks for coming to visit and, and all the work it did to pull this event off today. Jeff Schafer from New Rockford, New Rockford address, but I'm actually in Wells county within a couple miles. I remember my first Farm Bureau meeting was John Bollingberg called and said, "Hey, I'm going to pick you up." And here I am. So, and you talk about a great mentor and a great role model, but everything that Farm Bureau stands for and, you know, what they've done is unbelievable. And an event like this when we could partner with three counties and get somebody of the caliber of Jolene Brown in here and, and fill Festival Hall, Fessenden, That's, that's pretty cool.

[02:13] Emmery: Can you tell us a little bit about your operation, how long you've been farming? And you're, you're unique, too, because you are, well, unique might be the wrong word, but you're the right person for this interview because you are a multi- generational farm as well. We had the privilege of interviewing your daughter a couple months ago at the annual meeting about her involvement in the operation, et cetera. So why don't you just go ahead, tell us a little bit about your operation. And about working with your family, give us a background.

[02:43] Jeff: So my wife, Leanne, and I are the fifth generation on Rhein Valley Farms. My mom is still here. My dad passed a couple years ago. We have our eldest two children involved in the operation, Chelsey and Colten. Our youngest, Corey's in Texas in love with the show world, so. And he's following that all around living the dream. Our operation consists of a commercial call calf operation, a small permitted feedlot, diversified farming operation, and a Purina feed dealership. So it's busy. Leann, and our goal was always to provide an opportunity to any child that wanted to come back home. So, you know, obviously two right now, maybe three one day. We'll see where that goes. It's challenging and rewarding at the same time, if I can say that. Chelsey's married. Colten is engaged. Chelsey has four children now. So we are Nana and Papa times four. And I'll tell you what, I've said it many times, and I'll say it again, it's probably one of God's greatest blessings. And when they want to live the day with you or job shadow with you or whatever you want to call it, it's pretty rewarding, and it truly reminds me of what's important in life. So that's a brief description of what we do.

[03:51] Emmery: That's awesome. And on that note, your Farm Bureau counties here work together to bring in Jolene Brown, who is a speaker from Iowa. We had the opportunity to interview her a couple weeks ago about what she going to talk about and her expertise, but she really has been a great advocate and a great resource in the farm transfer succession world and really talks about everything from the hard issues to the practical issues on what it means to carry on the family farm. And her topic today was bridging the generations on your farm. So we just thought we'd recap a little bit about what she talked about. And so do you want to go ahead and jump in on, you know, why did you guys want to bring Jolene Brown up here in particular?

[04:38] Jeff: You know, I had heard her prior to COVID, and then we got together as a tri-county and had her scheduled prior to COVID. COVID hit. We had to cancel. Unfortunately, COVID came and went and we decided to get back on this horse and try to get Jolene back in. So the three counties that originally agreed to it said yes again, which was great. And, you know, I believe Jolene said 22 years today, and I just thought about that. You think about 22 years of experience in this and what she has seen and been through, and, you know, she could bring so many stories and experiences to the table. And as they sit here, you know, even though your posterior is numb from sitting, your mind is just like, "Holy smokes! This has been two or 3 hours. She's so easy to listen to." She gets the crowd engaged, her ability to answer questions. And some of these stories that she shares, I think every one of us can relate to. And, you know, the bottom takeaway message, I think today is, you know, just go home and get started and continue this conversation. That's probably the biggest thing. And as, as I sit here, my wife and I have talked about it and we haven't started, so hopefully this is another motivation to at least start. Doesn't mean that we haven't been talking about it, but I guess nothing's formalized. And, you know, life is short and it happens fast, and we've been stewards of all, everything God's given us. So best thing we can do, I truly believe, is to try to do the best we can for the next generation. And I think getting somebody in like Jolene Brown to listen to and her way of talking, I talked to several people afterwards, and it's just like, she's just amazing how she can present it. Bring some humor. It's high caliber. If you haven't heard her, I challenge you to take the day and find her some time and enjoy her.

[06:18] Alisha: And I think one of the biggest things that she portrayed to everybody today is it doesn't have to be a negative experience. Like you just said, jeff, this is supposed to be a positive. What can I pass on to my kids and grandkids and look forward to and do this in a positive experience? And I think a lot of people that haven't done or seen anybody, they cringe at the thought of doing planning. I know even my parents, like, it's a cuss word. You don't even wanna really talk about it. And so coming to something like this, it almost revives you. And it's like, I wanna do this now. Like, this is something that's good. It shouldn't be something that we dwell on. And so you're a good example about working with family. Not every family farm gets the privilege to work with family. So two questions off the bat. What is the best thing about working with family every day? And what is the hardest thing about working with family every day?

[07:15] Jeff: The best part about working with family every day is, you know, you can work with the ones you love the closest, you know, and that that's truly rewarding. And it can be, it can be challenging, too, you know. And Jolene, you know, said it right away, you gotta separate family from business, and that can be real challenging. As a parent, you always, you love your kids the same, and sometimes you challenge them. Challenge them because, you know, they can be a better person than what they are. So, you know, I think Jolene is doing that to us today, you know, as adults or even kids, to start thinking about your future and what it looks like. And you're right. It's a tough subject. All through my life, I tried to avoid it as best I could, and, you know, we're all gonna live forever in all of this, and all of a sudden, there's a death in the family or a loved one that's near to you, and it's just like, man, life is short, and what happens if that was me? Where would I leave my family? And, you know, one guy said that he was here today, and he said, we just can't do that to our wives and our children. So, you know, we gotta be prepared the best we can and have those conversations while we're alive and just be fair. And like Jolene said, it is a difficult subject, but, I mean, she had some great examples of bringing humor in and enjoying, you know, the moment and just living life to the fullest.

[08:30] Emmery: It was really cool. I was sitting in the back behind you guys, behind your family and you and your wife and your daughter and your son.

[08:37] Jeff: You didn't read much body language, did you? [laughs]

[08:40] Emmery: Just, it was really fun just to see a family together. And there were a few multi-generational tables where you could tell that there's okay kids there, parents there. But I think you guys were one of the one of the few that were, like, there with all of your stakeholders sitting there, ready to go and talk about it. And that's something Alisha and I talk a lot about on the podcast, is how do you start the conversation when not every family member is at the table? Is how do you start the conversation with mom and dad about this? You know, you're farming. You've been involved in something like this, and... So you're a dad, Jeff. What would you recommend for a young person who's like, "Okay, Mom and Dad, I really want to start this conversation," but they're either scared because it didn't go well last time, or, like, who wants to ask their dad, like, okay, dad, when you die, what's going to happen? You know? So what would be your advice to young producers out there.

[09:35] Jeff: That's a great question, and it's a hard question. I remember as my dad, he'd, he'd mention it, and, you know, I would. I would listen a little bit, and I wasn't ever rude, but I try to divert or move on, you know, and, and we could talk about this later. Well, you know...

[09:51] Emmery: Like your dad telling you about his plan.

[09:52] Jeff: Yeah. Oh, it's just like. It's just like, you know, I appreciate that, and, yeah, we're good, but let's move on and tackle a task at hand today. And, you know, if there's any regrets in life, Cody Johnson's got that song until I can't. And I think about that a lot. So my best advice is sit down with your kids. Have that conversation. Whether you start or they start, just take the time.

[10:18] Emmery: What about the kids? Like, what would you recommend to them? So what would you want your kids to do to come up to you and start that kind of conversation? Or would you prefer to just start it yourself?

[10:31] Jeff: That's a good question. I hope I'm approachable and, you know, Jolene talked about that. I hope I'm approachable. And, you know, Chelsey and Colten, ones that are home and active, they have had these conversations with me. I don't always have the right answers, and it's hard for me because we haven't formally started. Leann and I have got a lot of ideas, but as we move forward, I'm sure we're going to try to include them in all our conversations. I think that was probably another great takeaway, is, is have that conversation while you're alive and not try to figure out what your Mom and Dad's wishes were once it's passed and you can't talk about it. So whether it's you or the kids, no matter what you're doing, you might be in the middle of a pulling a calf or chasing cows. Just take that five minutes and answer that question. Don't kick the can down the road.

[11:18] Emmery: Do you think, as a parent with children involved, do you think ownership is important in that? Like, somebody who's been working in it for a while coming to you? Or would you be fine with somebody just coming back from college or their job and starting that conversation with you?

[11:35] Alisha: How much of sweat equity do you believe in?

[11:37] Emmery: Yeah, before you have a conversation like that?

[11:40] Jeff: Are you asking me, my wife or my kids? Cause you're probably gonna get three different answers. You know, I didn't wanna go to college. Mom and Dad said, you're gonna go to college before you can come back. And I'm glad they did. Lifelong friends, networking and all of that. We asked the kids to go to college, and they did. When they got down with college, timing wasn't perfect, especially for Chelsey. Just wasn't. So she ended up with a outside job. She learned a lot, and she can bring a lot of what she learned back. Colten, when he got done with college, timing was right. He came right back into it. You know, she talked about fire in the belly. I think as long as the fire is in the belly and you want to be there and you want to work, I think I could go either way. I could see what the job did for Chelsey. I can on leadership and stuff like that. And by the same token, I'm not sure that Colten can bring some of that back to. So I think it's individual basis. I think timing is everything on this. That's probably the hardest thing is when do you bring that next generation back in? Sometimes, as much as you'd like to, you maybe can't afford to. You know, there's situations like that, and I've got many friends I went to college with that timing wasn't right for them, and they had to move on. So I think timing is everything. So if you can time it right and the opportunity is there, seize it.

[12:57] Alisha: And I think some parents that were here and why I wish my parents were here because. So there's.. I have two other siblings, and I think a lot of parents, they want to do what's right for the kids, and they are just so concerned about making things which we talked about today equal and fair. And they get so wrapped up in hurting each other's feelings that they can't make correct decisions for the business because they're letting their emotions take over. And I'm just gonna read, I was taking some notes in Jolene's notebook, and one thing that just really stuck with me is it says, parents don't owe their kids a business. But three things that she wrote down that she thought she owed her children were morals and values, the opportunity for an education, legal disussed revised estate plan, and then the listing of details beyond a will. And obviously, everybody, parents are going to have their own, I guess, their own thoughts and opinions behind that. But the idea of removing the emotion to make decisions for the business is going to overall end up better for your children than trying to think, "Is Suzy going to be mad at Johnny if we make this decision?" I think for the parents that were here today that had their children I think that's gonna be really eye opening for them and help them make better decisions.

[14:22] Jeff: And yet it's the hardest.

[14:23] Alisha: Yeah, right.

[14:24] Jeff: It truly is the hardest. It's easier said than done.

[14:27] Alisha: Uh huh. It's probably gonna be one of those things that you print, laminate, and have to hang up all around your barn, in the house. So it's something that you can look at every single day and know the decisions I am making this is why.

[14:41] Jeff: Oftentimes in a death deal, you know, the way it ends up, there's family members that don't talk to each other for the rest of their lives. And that's unfortunate, and it probably happens more times than not. So how do you avoid that? And you definitely don't want that to happen while you're still alive. So that balancing between family and business is a real challenge. It goes back to love. You know, you just hope you're doing a lot of love and that they can understand that, and you're just trying to make it better as a business, and you still love them, and you still want them there at the Christmas table and Thanksgiving table.

[15:11] Emmery: I really like what she says about a business first family or a family first business. And it's actually, my dad a few years ago, introduced me to that quote because he had listened to Jolene talk at a different venue. And at first, you're like, "What? The reason that we farm together is because family is the most important thing." But thinking about it in the terms of, if you have the respect or the wherewithal to have your business things in order, and you're like,"Okay, so this is a... we're going to treat this like a business. We're going to treat this for what it is. And then the family is the most important thing. But it doesn't get mixed up in the two." You can truly give proper credence to both, and you can realize that family is the most important thing. But that doesn't necessarily translate that, "Okay, we have to have a really dysfunctional, bad-boundaried business in order to love each other. It's actually better to have a boundaried, functional business that has everybody in their proper place and role." And then, like you said, around the Christmas table or around the dinner table, that's when the family thrives. That's when we're all family together.

[16:24] Jeff: So, personally, we've had some of these discussions, and the thing that keeps coming up is expectations. The younger generation probably has a different expectation of what they see their role as was what Leann and I might see their role as, I think to try to get around some of those challenges is to sit down and truly have that. "What do I expect of you, and what do you expect of me?" That's probably...IIt's not an easy way, but it might be a way to work around and through that challenge.

[16:56] Alisha: Going back to siblings or the father or the uncle, whoever, having issues with each other and going to a person that they feel safe with and putting those issues on that person that can't really do anything to fix it. Instead of having that direct conversation, which you said, Jeff, we all know that's the hardest thing to do, is have that direct conversation with the person who you're having troubles with. But then if you don't, month after month, years, and then you start creating resentment, too, because you just keep getting more irritated and angry with that person and, "Well, they haven't changed, and they're set in their ways." Well, if you haven't relayed any of those expectations to that person, or, "Hey, this is really not working for us, or, I don't like how this is moving forward. How do they know how to change?" And how do they know that what they're doing is wrong, too? And I think families that work together all the time, that's probably one of the biggest struggles, is being able to confront that person and make legitimate changes.

[17:59] Jeff: Constructive criticism or constructive....

[18:02] Alisha: There we go.

[18:03] Jeff: How do you make this positive? So I thought Jolene had a good example. If your son or daughter is showing up consistently late, you know, you might get mad at him. Not that I have, maybe, [laughs]but it's like, "What is creating you to be late or What's causing you to be late?" I just like that spin on it. So sometimes my dad always said, "You know, your message probably isn't wrong, but your words to get there might be." So I think about that a lot. And moving forward of, it's probably easier to talk to an employee than a family member just because of the relationship you have, and not that you don't have a good relationship with an employee, but it's entirely different than a family member, or you would hope it would be, because I think it's better that way.

[18:51] Alisha: Well, and one of the things Jolene had said, too, is I didn't say this to my son because I wanted him to not like the mom and not like me. So you're creating your own problem because of certain things, too. So it's just...family is just so hard. It's one of the best things to be able to work with family. But it's also one of the hardest, which is why bringing Jolene Brown in and taking the day to come here and listen from somebody outside of your family is so important.

[19:24] Emmery: Part of her presentation was having a panel of three experts where she visited with a local CPA, accountant, financial planner, and attorney, because those are the three people that you need on board in order to come up with a good plan. And so you had mentioned you've had a lot of conversations in your family about starting the process, et cetera. I guess my question is, like, how do you go ahead and find an expert that you can trust? Like, what are the steps involved in that?

[19:58] Jeff: And that's a challenging question. But, you know, I thought about it sitting back there, and one other response from Jolene, this came to mind is, you know, we're all consumers, and we all consume from someone who we have developed a relationship with and a trust with. So I think that's probably our challenge between Leann and I, is we're trying to find that person that we trust and we can build that relationship with. And, you know, I think the more of these meetings you go to and the more panel people you can meet, I think about the time that those panelists gave up. I just, I have the utmost respect for them. This is a busy time of the year for the attorney and the CPA, for sure, and they gave a day to come here, and that speaks volumes to me. And you talk to other people here, you know, who might be their team members, and then you could take it home and talk about it and maybe set up those appointments. But I truly believe it comes down to who you feel comfortable with and then to start that conversation, and you might feel comfortable with them. And after that first conversation, you might decide to move on, too. Identifying the people that we want to have that initial conversation with.

[21:00] Emmery: No, I really like that. And then, like you said, having those initial conversations really helps you identify the values of that person, because each farm obviously will value different things. And so getting somebody on board that you can share values with and trust, and there's a lot of things to work through. When you hear it all. You're like, oh. And then you start hearing the horror stories, and it's like, oh, man, you're a fifth generation farm, so there's at least four or five generations behind you that have all successfully done it. So there's hope for the rest of us.

[21:32] Jeff: Right. And it can't fail on your watch, right?

[21:33] Alisha: Yeah. You can't let that pressure everybody's just putting that right on your plate.

[21:41] Jeff: If it was cookie cutter, everyone would do it. But it's not a cookie cutter approach. You know, every, every operation is unique. So I think a lot of times the team members are going to be unique to that individual's operation, and it's just to find that right connection.

[21:57] Alisha: And this isn't an overnight process. Like, you don't just go home and find these three people and you have all your paperwork done. Like you said, it takes time, and you have to find the right people. And that's why it's a slow process. So just starting and finding those people and going through it and listening to other people is what makes it, I think, more enjoyable. By not getting so frustrated, like, okay, by tomorrow, I have to have this trust and this will, and I gotta talk to an attorney. It doesn't happen like that. And so understanding that this is gonna take a long time, so let's make a checklist and start with a workshop like Jolene, and go from there. It makes it, I think, a lot less stressful for a family.

[22:42] Jeff: And go home and dust the dust off the filing cabinet and get out all the information that was required for your appointments. That was good information today, too.

[22:50] Emmery: I really like the resources that she gave us for doing business meetings and conflict resolution and identifying all of the ownership and responsibility areas on your farm. And really, I mean, all of those things just are encapsulated into what makes a business and what you have to have for every other business out there. And so I guess, I guess that was my biggest take home, was just that your farm is worthy of being treated like a business, and all of the stakeholders are worthy of treating it like a business, too. And we farm and ranch because we like the life, but also it provides for us and for our communities, and it provides food for everybody else. And so it's the lifeblood of community. And so I think treating it with respect is really worthwhile.

[23:40] Jeff: You know, she talked a lot about leader of the group. You know, I think as leaders of the groups within our families, you try to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each family member, and you definitely want to put each family member in charge of their strengths. We all have strengths and weaknesses, but you really want to focus on the strengths. And then how do you incorporate responsibility and accountability on top of that? And that's probably the other challenging part. And one of those, it had r. And I'm trying to remember what the r stood for, but responsibility, responsibility. And you can only have one per line. And it's like, "Wow! Sometimes it's hard to relinquish that and let someone stub their toe or give them just enough rope to hurt themselves." But I guess my mom and dad let me bump my nose and get a few bloody noses, and I've tried to do that to our kids, too, but it's hard. I just want to thank Farm Bureau and all the work that was done on behalf of everyone to get Jolene here today. I just encourage everyone that's out there to start, and it doesn't have to be complicated. You know, maybe just start having that conversation with your wife and your kids and what your goals and expectations are. Just start that conversation. I think you will be well on your way to a good plan.

[24:50] Emmery: Well, thank you for visiting with us today on this snowy day up in Fessenden, North Dakota, and taking time away from your calves, which I understand are coming quickly and fast. So thanks for everything and for all of the county Farm bureaus out there that sponsored this event.

[25:04] Jeff: So thanks for being here.

[25:09] Emmery: You've been listening to straight talk with NDFB. To learn more about events hosted by NDFB, visit us at ndfb.org and to contact Alisha and myself, email us at emmery@ndfb.org.

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